SPEAKER_01 0:00

You know, I really believe that if we're trying to tell a story that influences change, we need to do it over time and not to the point where we're trying to share this large vision of change to someone and expect it to just happen. You know, again, if we're gonna use video and audio, we can use those tools to share little incremental things, tests, experiments, uh, elements of how people are feeling or capturing and really addressing those pain points to do it over time. I really think that is one of the key areas there to allow us to just consider one avenue to be super, super creative here and and leverage those tools to have some fun with it while you do it.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are and wherever you're watching at. Welcome back to the Visual Lounge. This is a conversation that I recorded with Jake Jittleton a while back, and it's one that I keep finding myself coming back to. As the pace of change keeps picking up, the way he talks about using stories and visuals to help people navigate uncertainty feels more relevant now than when we first recorded it. So as you listen, pay attention to how leadership shifts when we're not just sharing information, but helping people find clarity and meeting. So let's jump in with Jake. Jake Gilson leads McKenzie's Learning Research and Innovation Lab, which is focused on creating a culture of sustained innovation through research, experimentation, and education. He's also the co-host on the Learning Geeks podcast and co-authored articles on learning and development for the McKinsey Quarterly, and is someone I've gotten to know working through ATD and other organizations, and it's just super smart and super fantastic. So please help me welcome Jake to the Visual Lounge. Hey Jake. Hey, Matt. Good to see you. Good to see you too. Thank you so much for for joining me. Uh, it's been a little while, so it's good to catch up with you. Um, for sure. We're gonna we're gonna dive right into our first questions. We got our first three questions we always ask. So the first one is always just a little bit of get to know you. How did you get started using uh videos in your workplace?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

In my workplace, I was gonna say, how did I start using videos? Period. That's probably actually I'll go back there. I was uh it started with audio. Um, I mean, I grew up in the day where where cassettes were a thing, and I used to own a a small little uh cassette recorder, and so I remember sitting in my room and I would I would actually hit record and I'd become a DJ. So I always wanted to have like this, I always wanted to be a DJ in some way, so I would record what was on the radio, and then I would record myself, play it back. That's how it started. And then as I as I got older, I grew up in kind of the era where the internet came to be, it became more into I wouldn't say the internet came to be, it just became more consumer focused, can be in the homes. And so I did a lot of audio on the computer, and then I started once video started to come to the point where you could start to do it on a computer more often, I started to learn how to edit, and just most of my stuff early on was just silly. Like I just like to make funny videos or funny audio segments and share it with my friends and family. But I it started early and it really has not left my my interest area this whole time.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Well, I I'm I think we're probably about the same generation. Like, if you didn't make a mixtape for your friends or the girl you liked, or like what were you doing with your life at that point, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I had multiple, I had multiple mixtapes of yeah, Jake the G Jake the DJ, and when I was in college, I got one year where I was able to step behind a DJ booth, well, no, you know, with a radio in the uh university radio place and and have a show. I had the Jake G show, and I was uh yeah, we we did like hip hop music and and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

It was great. That's that is awesome. And I and I love the progression, right? Because it's it is some of the foundational skills that I think you know you just learn and then it it does transfer, and there's things you can do with it in the in the workplace and around you. Um so the next question is we always ask about defining success, and today I want to ask, how do you define success for change? Because we're gonna be talking about later about a lot more about change, but it's one of those things that's like I think it's we know change, change happens to us whether we want or not, but how do you make it make sure it's like what does successful change look like?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

That's a great question. I change in itself, there's a lot of emotion behind it, uh, whether or not it's the resisting emotion, the negative emotion. So I tend to find where people feel really emotionally connected and feel that they have a place in this change. Whether or not they still feel scared, whether or not they still feel uncertain, I feel that's okay. But I also feel if if I can get to a point where they feel connected as well as they feel somewhat excited, and the burden of that anxiety and and all that is kind of lessened. I think that that to me is a positive and something I'm always trying to do. So whenever I think of changes, like how do we get people to not fully buy in, but feel good about it or feel inspired or curious about it. And actually, that's probably a better word, curious, because if you're curious, then you're gonna want to learn more and learn more. And that to me is starting to a sign of success. So I like to see that over time, and if I see it fade, then I know I'm probably not doing it well.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Well, I I I like that because I think I tend to, and and I'm not an expert in this by any means, but I I I think I would get caught, and I do get caught in like, oh, it's not I'm not complete, or someone else isn't doing everything yet, right? Like, so I love that curiosity approach because it feels a lot one healthier to me, but two, also much more manageable in a sense that like I don't have to get them from A to done in like to be successful along. It's a journey.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

It is a full exactly, it's the full journey. So it's if we step back and even think of how you do how you know artists and storytellers uh really tell stories in movies and film and um and shows and all that, it it is a journey, especially like a an episode arc, right? Like, how do you bring them along? How do you build out the environment? How do you build out the quote characters or like how you as a character is gonna feel? There is uh it is a definitely a journey in progress in there, and and it also avoids you of trying to do too much at the very beginning because that can also lead to failure.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, over overwhelm them right away.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Too much failure, I should say, because failures can be good, but also too much failure, which can be a burden burdensome to you and and then overwhelming and then to the point where like, do I really want to do this anymore?

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Right. No, absolutely. Well, I want to come back to change in just a minute, but one last question here. How how if you could give your the audience a tip, right? Of using images and videos, and if you want to tie it to change, that's fantastic. If just general tip, but what's a tip you could give your my audience about uh using images videos in the workplace better?

SPEAKER_01 7:19

So I I this to me is where you can use videos and audio is where you can use so much creativity. And my tip is to not limit yourself to one specific thing or be too focused or too narrow-minded. Where I mean, I remember creating videos, I was telling a story about uh using game mechanics for um, I think we were doing onboarding, so game mechanics for onboarding, and we were using we're getting inspired by escape rooms. So I remember at the very beginning, I got inspired by like, what do people think about when they think of escape rooms? Being locked in a room, can't get out, freaked out, terrified, start to be claustrophobic. So I remember starting off the video with me actually feeling that way, and I cut these multiple scenes, so I feel really start to be inspired. Like, what is that story? What do people actually think about when I even use the one word? And then add in that that element either it's joy or the the humor, but be creative as heck, because like that's the great part of it. Like videos and audio allow you to do that, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, I I I love that. And you I've seen a couple of videos you've made, particularly you made one for ATD uh technology conference, and it was fantastic, and it was very creative, and I forgot about that one, yeah. That is that that's really good. So I I love that tip, and uh that's not one that we hear very often, right? Like, because it's it's not the one that is like, oh, do this, do this. It's like, yeah, let it be creative. And I think that's uh a good thing to hear from from someone yours like yourself. So let's let's again shift back to this idea of talking about uh leading change and change using stories and visuals in particular. But be I I guess it would help us level set us a little bit, like Jake. What what kind of things do you do? Like bring help us understand your expertise here in this area. And and if someone's listening, like, I don't know, Jake, I I'm here for you know video stuff. Why, why is this important?

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah, why why why am I talking about videos and audios? So in my role, I am you know I'm a learning professional, I have been in this space for 15 plus years. Um over the last I would say seven or so years, I have been more focused on the innovation side of learning and talent development. And as part of innovation and research and and all that, it is it has changed. You're trying to figure out what is new. So currently uh I work at McKinsey and Company, and I lead a research and innovation learning lab. And I've been doing this for a couple years. And we, you know, I lead projects uh and and individuals who are working on these projects as a source of education for themselves, but at the same time, we're trying to help others within our organization as well as others outside the organization. What are some things that we should care about? And what's the things that we should be aware of, and what's some things that we should do differently. I would say that sometimes I've compared my job, like kind of comes across as a used car salesman. I have to feel like I have to convince a lot of people why this can be good or why this can't, wouldn't be a thing to invest in. So I'm always trying to utilize those skills. But so when it comes to video and audio, I'm thinking of ways to how to tell stories because again, back to what we just you know, what we just talked about. Part of change and part of looking at the new and part of innovating can be scary, can feel different, can feel like a disruption. So then how do we make people feel like they can do it and it's not as um gonna be as much of an effort? Of course, there's always effort involved into it, but they feel excited, they feel curious. And I love to use videos and audios to help tell that story. And there's many times where plus I also think audio, for example, is a it's a it's it can be such an easy mechanism to tell it from the human lens and and easily distribute it now. You can distribute so fast as well as videos. There's just it's just a great medium to tell things very quickly and to hear it from an actual human in a way that gets the emotion across, makes people feel that they can feel connected to it.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

So as you're thinking about uh maybe you're leading a project, and you don't have to be super specific by any means, but you're leading a project and you're thinking about these kind of media to deliver uh you know kind of the information. You mentioned that human connection. What why why is that so important in this process? Because I can see like, you know, like look, uh corporations they need to change, you gotta live or die, or you know, you know, you're not getting your paycheck, companies are closing, economics are tough. So for you, Jake, why, especially as you look across so many different types of technologies and different project projects, why is that a key piece of this that uh you want to emphasize in what you do?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Well, I'll I'll give an example because I know Matt, you and I, I I shared right before we were on that one of the projects that I wrapped up, we did every year we do this trends analysis. So we look at these major, major global reports that come out every year. And I'm sure all the listeners are has probably either read them or seen them, or every year you see 2023 or into your year, the the latest tech trends or the latest marketing trends or the latest design trends. So we look at all of these reports across the board and then we synthesize them all, and we figure out nine of them that we and LD as well as the larger talent or people function should actually care about. And there's one in particular that I'll share. It's we have one called D silo people functions. And we say borderless functions promote development across the entire employee lifecycle. And so from an LD side, if we're just talking to learning development professionals, again, that's where I'm situated. They'd be like, well, that's not typically why would I work with other functions? Why would I work with other HR functions or if other organizations call them people functions? That can be a pretty big disruptor. So I have to figure out, okay, what does that mean? What does that mean for us? What does that mean for the short term? What does this mean in the next six to 18 months? What does that mean for 18 months and beyond? And so when it comes to video and audio and other means of storytelling, I have to figure out how do I start to help many people cross those functions. Because again, now I'm not talking to just L and D anymore. I'm talking to uh maybe it's talent attraction, like a recruiting, maybe it's a uh compensation, maybe it is the folks that deal with the performance management. I'm talking with a lot of different folks, and I have to not only understand where they're coming in from, I have to understand their needs, I have to understand their wants, and I have to understand how to tell the story effectively to them to feel that this is meaningful, this is something to change, this is something where I feel like I can be a part of. So that's why, as part of the, like again, I'm just using this example because this trends report actually is something that we use specifically internally, and you know, I think over time we would love to start sharing it more externally, but it is something that we used to keep ourselves innovating, and it does require a big change effort in it. And I'd love just using storytelling and videos and audio to help do that.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Well, I that's amazing, first of all, because I do think there is a lot there, right? And I can see why, like, look, you've got these are big, these are big issues. These are not the little like, oh, you know, and it it requires big effort, but uh there's this there's probably a skeptical out there, someone's skeptical out there saying, like, okay, Jake, cool, you guys are you guys got resource budget, big company, stories. How how would you uh start to operationalize this, right? Like, be and and I and you know, look, I we I think anyone can do this, frankly. I this is coming from Matt, I think anyone can use story, but how do you go about doing that in a very practical way? Because I feel like it's one thing to say we should be telling these stories or we should be using the media to to help make that human connection. It's another thing to start putting that into practice. And so I'd I'm curious if you have advice that helps you and your organization to do that to do that well or at least do it okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yeah. Um, well, I I'm I'm laughing because you said big budget. And why why I'm laughing is because I operate um I uh I always try to operate or think in an operation as if I have none. Not to say I don't, yeah, but I operate as if I don't have one. Because throughout my time, I have, you know, again, a lot of my career, I started off with I had maybe one or two years, and then we had the Great Recession. So then I spent many, many years trying to figure out how to really hack what I had all of the time. And so I'm very used to doing something on uh really nothing, what I had. And so I believe you can get so much done in that way, and that's how I still believe to this day that I mean I I really am trying to do stuff at the most minimal cost. And honestly, everything that that um I do in terms of video or audio or storytelling is just with equipment that I have. Yes, I do podcasts on the side, but we do a podcast where it's it's the three of us who are not doing um it's all our equipment. We I edit, you know, it's all from us. We don't we don't get paid, we get nothing. Like it's just it's nothing. So I believe that it is video and audio is one of those things like most people have phones or some device that we can record. Um if you do have a PC or heck even a phone, again, you have something to record yourself from an audio standpoint. The the barrier to entry, right, is just so low. Like you can get in so quickly on these things, and that's why I think like if you can start, don't worry about either the technology or whatnot. I think there's so many tools for that to happen. And when it comes down to how I tell stories, that doesn't require anything. That requires your mind. That requires like how am I going to tell this story effectively? Can I do this a couple interviews to understand the person, the needs? Like again, I'm I'm I'm sharing stuff that really doesn't require much.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

I think when we do audio video, we get so wrapped up in the the tech, the what kind of equipment do I need? Um, what kind of lighting do I have in my background if I if I'm doing something about you know more myself and I'm doing a video behind it, which that's all fantastic, but it's not needed, it's really not needed. It comes down to the stories. That's that's the key aspect.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

So so you mentioned something. You mentioned about going out and doing some interviews, talking to some people. What what are the other things you feel like are helpful for building those stories? Because I do feel like you know, there's lots of stories you could tell, uh, there's lots of ways to go about those stories. I I and I love your point that you just made. It doesn't cost a lot to tell a story, right? We've been doing this since the beginning of time, telling each other's stories. But what what pieces do you feel like help you to make sure you're telling the right story?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah, I think I'm gonna go back to interviews first because interviews I love to go off and you know, I I I often use a mix between what I can get from again, qualitative and quantitative. So again, interviews take time, but then they also allow you to hear either frustrations or the joy, happiness, things that really bring them excitement, and you can hear them from people. So I like to go off because I feel like that's part of you know, at least my profession, I feel like I should be doing that, I should understand what people are going through, the struggles, the pain points. So doing interviews is always a great, great thing to do that. And then I'm gonna just take uh you know a Matt Pierce playbook, because you know, Matt, you've been doing this for so long, but I believe that it's so strong to get you know your your storyboards in place. Think about your scripts, think of again, not yeah your detailed scripts, but more of a simple outline. What's that flow? What's that storytelling approach that I want to tell? Um, and when I use the interviews, for example, I can find out those pain points. What are things, what are people worried about? What are people they want to know about? And I can use that as part of my storytelling approach and like build out, let's call it either an outline or like we said earlier, a little bit of a journey. So a little bit of a life cycle. So this is kind of our long-term approach, or when I say long term, it could be a series, maybe it's a series of five videos, maybe it's a series of five audio shows that you want to do. You can start to pinpoint over time. And how do I you're setting up your story structure, all of that? So I think it's a lot of that early up planning outside of interviews as well. That that's so much of the work. The video part is the fun part, creating it. And so I I believe though the before is just as fun because that's where the real work comes in.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Well, that's where you're you're learning, right? That's where the story is forming, and that's it's so interesting. I, you know, I I one of the things, the great joys of doing a podcast like this is I get to talk to people, I get to ask people questions, and they, you know, I'm just a benefit of like wave after wave of great information. And I I it it is truly a a blessing to be able to sit in this chair and to be able to do that. So I I love that, right? Like hearing the things that are really, really getting to people or worrying people makes so much sense. Um, you know, you mentioned, you know, the video part is the fun part, uh, and I I agree it's fun to do that. Uh in in this example of the types of things that you're doing, so you're you're talking to people, you're gathering the information, maybe you're doing some surveys or whatever it might be to start form this story. For you, what are some of your preferred ways to actually then display that story? Are you actually doing like cinematography in terms of like like are you doing interviews, bringing that together? Are you like going actually like having a character and following that character through the the life cycle or whatever it might be? Um, animations, like what types of things do you do to put together to actually then visually depict the stories that you're telling if you're using video?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah, I mean, I would probably say all of the above. Um one and again, it also depends on complexity or time. So, how how fast do I want to get something out? So, for example, you just mentioned like the characters, so There's something I just did not too long ago, or pretty recently. Um, I haven't done it on video yet, but I actually think it would be something I would do in video because I had the I had the luxury of actually meeting some folks in person to share this. So it kind of didn't need the video at that moment because I was trying to influence those folks. But um, you know, one thing I did is I took a persona, I took an individual, and I said, I what I felt was struggling, I felt we needed to see what a potential experience could look like. What would their interactions look like uh with something that we have been brainstorming on, something that we are visualizing for the future, I wanted to show what does that look like? So I just did a quick little bit of a storyboard. I did some animation on my iPad, like just kind of wrote things out. Very, very kind of back of the napkin thing, but it was telling that story of that character. What I could have done too is I could have actually again, like I said, I was able to narrate it live with folks, but if I wanted to do this more at scale or do it so I can distribute and share it, I would actually just do that exact same thing, but then record my voice over top of it and then and then publish it and share it. You know, boom, done. It's very quick, very easy, but it's something that I can say, hey, this is our vision. It's it's here you go. And I've done that before. I've actually used Miro before in the past, and for those that know Miro, it's it's a digital whiteboard tool. I've used that in the past where I've kind of structured out my uh storyboard elements. I put it up across the screen, and then I was able to animate and talk to it, you know, record that video, boom, send it out. Um, there's other elements too where I really, especially if I'm doing, let's say, a more um well, I think something in the past before that we've done. I I mentioned this idea of this onboarding using game mechanics. So when we were doing this thing, it was a big transformation within onboarding. We it was different. It was beyond the common approach that you usually think of onboarding, where you're sitting in a classroom and you're going through slide after slide after slider after slider, going through the notebook and or the the manual, you'll say, of things. We really wanted to make people feel excited and welcomed and um connected to what and almost validate their decision of why they came to this company. So we we we designed really a game, and while we were doing that, we knew it was gonna be an effort. So we recorded the action during during the time. Um so I kind of think of it like kind of b-roll stuff. It kind of recorded the action, and then after we did interviews. So really think of it as a reflection opportunity for them, but also for us. We captured those videos and then we so we spliced that stuff together. So then we had the mix of the audience, you know, what they were doing, as long as what the feedback was. And then, of course, to me, music is is key because it helps tell the emotional story that you're trying to tell. You put it up together quick, and it really wasn't something a huge effort. And we were able to share that with our large stakeholders and say this is how it's working. We're seeing progress, we're seeing actual learning that's occurring, and something that was probably difficult for people to see that gaming with an onboarding can actually be something that you can learn from.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yeah, I I I love that because it is like this fast turnaround. It is there's something, and you know, you were talking earlier, and I had thought about this. We often like as a kind of similar example, we take and we'll interview customers, right? People who are using the products, or they've gone through some maybe some research questions and they're giving that feedback. And our research team records just simple recordings. This is not like there's no fancy setup, it's just a Zoom recording, probably. And then they take that, and when they do share outs, they'll share some of those snippets of those things that were said, and the power behind that, right? The power of hearing that person's voice that is not an internal stakeholder, not someone who has something to, they're not obviously trying to manipulate it to one way or the other. This is just someone who's like, this is their feedback, this is what a user really thinks. And it's like, yeah. And it's it's it's strange how much more power that has than if I just like if I were just to say, hey, I think this, we should do this kind of thing, as it doesn't matter as much internally as if someone externally is heard saying it.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

So that's and and and that's a great point because there's there's there's actually tools out there, I know you know that too, but like there are methods, and and you don't even need a tool, you can actually do this very quickly. Where if if you are trying to do user research, for example, like you said, like I can do user research and I can have all of these quotes, but then adding a quick video snippet if you got their permission to do that, and have it come for them because you hear the emotional depth in that that answer or that response, it just adds another layer. And again, that's super easy. There's nothing to it recording on your phone or recording on Zoom or whatever the case could be, and post it. And you don't even have to post it, you can just post it in somewhere quick. Maybe you have like a box or you have a Google Drive, whatever the case could be. It could be super, super easy. We have so many tools now to be able to upload and share, and we just add that that element and it makes a massive difference.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah, it's crazy. We uh how much information is shared? We use Slack, so how much information is just in Slack, right? There's videos and there's yeah, all sorts of stuff, and it's uh it's just easy. You know, when we were making those mixtapes back in the day, there was no place to post them.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

So just a massive clutter. I used to have this little like locker that my uncle built. Um, and and for those who don't know, I'm based in Chicago, so I'm a huge Chicago Bears fan. Even though I'm not wearing a hat today, um, I'm actually wearing a Dallas Cowboys hat, which is weird, but I just like the hat. But anyway, um, but I had it, I had a Chicago Bears uh locker that my uncle built, and it was my top drawer was filled with mixtapes. That's what was my top drawer, and a couple one dollar bills and stuff that I would get from doing chores.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Mixtapes and and dollar bills. Yeah, I had one of those boxes in my car that like it was a briefcase of but for tapes, you know. Yes, so that way I could pull out the tape, put it in. Yeah. Well, well, Jake, I wanna uh we're gonna go to our speedrun in just a couple minutes here. Uh, but I wanted to ask you before uh we move on, we're just kind of changing subjects here just a little bit, because you do a podcast, and I yeah, I want to just promote the podcast because I've listened to the podcast. Uh you and your co-hosts are all And you've been on it. I've I have been a been a while. It's I think pre pre-pandemic, but just tell us tell us a little bit about what you do on the pod. What is the podcast and what do you guys do on it?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Sure. So the podcast is the learning geeks, and so it's myself, Bob Gerard, and Dana Crock. We we do, we're all learning professionals. We actually used to work together at one point. Um, but the the show is all about I mean, I really think of our show as sitting around a dining table and and talking about how we learn and how we can do it better. And we think about technology involved in it, and we always bring up a Star Wars topic. Uh we always try to embed it somehow into it. Um, for those that have used to watch Seinfeld, that was always the gig of trying to bring in a Superman reference at some point. We kind of do that. But yeah, we just we're the show is what it is. We we love learning, we love learning ourselves, we love learning from others, and and we we do it for 30 minutes and we we release it every other week. So yeah, and and and again, the show is somewhere you can easily find on all your podcast places and search the learning geeks and you got it.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah, easily accessible, but we'll also put a link in the show notes so anyone that's that doesn't want to do the Google search can can easily find you guys. But yeah, I I I just want to recommend it to if you're in uh learning and development and that's something that sounds like interesting to you, go go check out their podcast. Uh and not because I was on it, because it's good good information.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

So yeah, you should link you should link your yours too, because we were talking about oh yeah, storytelling. Yeah, and storytelling video. You should find it.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

I forgot that it was even the topic. That feels like so long ago.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

It was a so I think I I I want to believe that was probably the beginning of either a second season or maybe our end of our first. I cannot remember. It was a long time ago, actually. And and it seems so long ago now, especially with the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Uh yes, uh as many things pre-times seem they seem distant. So well, Jake, we're gonna go into our speed round questions for those who may not know what a speed round is. It's quick questions with quick answers chosen by roll of dice. So here we go. Okay. All right, so I'm gonna bring up our dice cam here. Look at this. Uh so nice. Blue or green or yellow die. Let's go with uh let's go with blue since I'm wearing blue today. All right, so here we go. Our first roll is gonna tell us it is question number two. Okay. So bring up that number two. Okay. Well, I I I think this this will be interesting. So we talked a lot about change. Change is hard. Change is uh it's a big topic. There's I think a lot to it. I mean, I'm sure there are people who have obviously written books about it, but I don't know that you would consider yourself a master maybe at change or talking about change, but how did you get so just generally how did you get good at the topics that we talked about today? Like, what has been the impetus to go from like, because as a kind of an LD guy to I these are some big, big concepts.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Uh well, I I I would say two things. One, um, I try to really leverage experiences that I personally have gone through and think about what does it require myself to change because there is a lot of similarities between us as just humans. Um, I've read I've read books on it. I'm actually gonna give a shout out to uh Britt Andrietta, who's actually written some uh really good books on change, and there's actually one specifically. And Britt is a someone that's in the learning space, um, and but she also is a fantastic researcher and synthesizer. So I I think you know, reading her book on change, I think it's wired to resist is a really good one. So, you know, reading those kind of books and and understanding it, and then again, being in the innovation space, we're going through change all the time. So I'm always constantly tinkering and playing with ideas and trying different things. Um, and and you you you get quick feedback to what doesn't work and what works.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Well, it's a and it's a good thing, right? Because feedback is is really the a great mechanism to if you want to learn something, get feedback.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

So now speaking since this was a lightning round, Matt, was that too long of an answer, or do we are you gonna tell me to go even shorter? You're good.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Well, let's see what the next question is. That's that's one of the less fun questions. So let's roll the dive again for question number two, and that can't can't do it again. So unless you want to talk about mastering mixtapes. Okay, we get you can see the dot is at the bottom, so this is gonna be question number nine. Okay, okay, so we we talked about several things, Jake. I could have asked you a lot of questions. What's the question I should have asked you, but I didn't?

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Ooh, that is a good one. Um man, what is a good question? Well, let's say what is what is the and I'm gonna ask this back to you because this would be the question. What's the funniest video that you've ever created that you still think worked the most effectively to tell that specific change or story?

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Okay, so good question. Uh there was a video, so I used to do a lot of promo videos before I got and speak at events, and I was doing one about uh 50 tips. And I'd say it's an audacious 50 tips in an hour is audacious, right? It's just stupid. And I was trying to convince people to come, and the thing in it is I was like, what do you you just stand there and tell people like hey, I've got a session, da-da-da-da. You know, it's kinda so I said, let's have some fun with it. And we did the a series of things that like I did wrong. Like, I didn't have the lights on, I didn't have a microphone place. I like and like it's me and the video pro a video producer. Like, he's like, Are you gonna turn on the lights? I'm like, no, I just I'm just trying to record this quick. And so it's like we kind of hit at some of the tips, and in it I made this stupid statement, like, and if you come to my session and I get through and I don't get through 50 tips, I'll give you a pony. And it's like you can't promise a pony. And I tried to buy plastic ponies, but they're stupid expensive. So I bought plastic dinosaurs that I had shipped to the hotel, which it was Las Vegas, so it was stupid expensive to get a package at the hotel.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

So these things became ridiculous. But I gave out plastic dinosaurs to everybody for coming. So it seemed it, you know, whether it worked or not for I think the people that saw it were like, it was amusing and it it drew you in, and I think it was easy to catch like some of the concepts, right? Like, oh yeah, look at all the things that you could do better in your video. And if you're just small changes, because you watch the video get progressively better looking, and it was, you know, like a cell phone video. It wasn't kind of like what you said, it wasn't like a high-end production by any means, it was just these little things.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

So right, yeah, that's a good one. Do you still have some? Do you still have some of the ponies? No, or do they they probably got lost in the move? I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, dinosaurs, you know, they're plastic dinosaurs. My kids probably played with them, and then at some point, I probably gave a lot of them out. There was it was a it was a good session turnout. So all right. Well, let's let's get our our see now. I I ruined speedrun. See, I I was long. Last last question for speedrun though. Oh my you're you're like the double's king. I don't know if you've had this many doubles, Jake. What it let's see, I can't read that. I think it's a three. Okay. So alright, a little little little different here. You have been pretty successful in your career. I think you would feel that. I feel that way. Like I it's a pleasure to know you. You got the I hope so.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

I mean, I I I I I again I I contribute a success to learning, and I feel like I have learned a lot since the beginning. So yeah, I would say, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

So what's the one thing you're most proud of in your career?

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Um, most proud of, I I would say I can actually pinpoint to one specific moment in time, and and and then it actually has been something that now I continue to do. When I realize that I am stagnant and I am not learning, I realize that I'm not progressing at all, and plus it actually affects me personally. And so there was a moment in time years ago where I really wanted to do something different in my uh my role, my profession. And I remember uh Dana, who's a co-host on our podcast at the time, I barely knew him at the time I worked with him, but again, I just knew him as that's Dana. He's incredibly smart, he's this learning science guy. And I re I I I reached out to him after a meeting and I and I said, Hey, Dana, like what you presented is something that I am really interested and want to get involved in. And then um, like a year later, I ended I ended up becoming an expert in that space um because I just went crazy for it. But what I what I again, why the takeaway was is that whenever I feel stagnant, whenever I feel like I need a change, at that moment it took me quite a few years to be have the courage to just ask someone and reach out. And that was that one moment for someone that myself, where I consider myself more of an introvert on occasions, uh, many times actually, I I was able to have the courage to speak up and offer, like, hey, I have something here, and that was enough to really propel myself forward into this innovation space that I really truly feel passionate about, and uh that it mixes between learning and everything else. So it's it's again, I think it's that moment of uh I'm really proud of that moment and and feel that it's it's moments that I continue to do. Never, whenever you feel that way, what's something that's gonna give you purpose? What's something that's gonna give you energy, what's something that's gonna give you joy and helping you learn and progress?

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Well, I I love that answer because it's typically, you know, we might ask that question, someone talks about something they did, and and and not that you haven't had those moments as well, but I love that because it's a it's a very growth mindset, it's very much about I I love that kind of moment that it's it's just being able to speak up in the street.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

And it was something that I it's it's something I did do because it what I didn't say before, I had a really hard time speaking with anybody I didn't know. It was extremely hard for me, even to this day, it's still hard for me. Um uh I I get terrified with the idea of going somewhere I don't know anybody. I just it really terrifies me. So that that that decision for for me to say, I don't know Dana, I only know of him, and I only I also know he's ex incredibly smart. Um, I was like, I'm going to take action to actually do something for them. Say it because I feel like I have a role, I have something I could help. That was my decision. And before that, I didn't do that. And now I know how to do it now going forward.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yeah, that that is awesome, Will. Jake, thank you so much for uh speaking with me today. You know, I'm I'm guessing one, we've talked about the podcast, so people can go find that. But if they wanted to connect with you or learn more from you, where would you point us?

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Yeah, other than the podcast, um, I don't do a whole lot of social media other than LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is probably the best place. Um I also have written articles, and Matt, you said this on the show right at the beginning, but I've written articles on McKinsey.com. Um you can find that I have stuff with on attentional learning, um, which is really all about better learning and uh apprenticeship. So those would be kind of be the spots. But again, LinkedIn is probably the best as well as the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Perfect, perfect. Well, well, Jake, it is always a pleasure to talk with you. I I always learn so much just being being around you and hearing. So uh as we wrap up the show, we'd like to hear from you. What is your final take for today's show?

SPEAKER_01 39:57

So, my final take is you know, I really believe that if we're trying to tell a story that influences and change, we need to do it over time and not to the point where we're trying to share this large vision of change to someone and expect it to just happen. You know, again, if we're gonna use video and audio, we can use those tools to share little incremental things, tests, experiments, uh elements of how people are feeling. We're capturing and really addressing those pain points. So do it over time. I really think that is one of the key areas there, as well as to just it's your one avenue to be super, super creative here and and leverage those tools to have some fun with it while you do it.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Awesome. Well, Jake, once again, thank you for joining me in the Visual Lounge. No, thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. You bet. All right, everybody, go check out the Learning Geeks podcast. Go find Jake's articles, go learn from him because look, keep working on yourself, keep changing, be willing to speak up as he talked about. That is a change that I think there's a really nice correlation there that we didn't really get a chance to talk about. But change is obviously so important, and these stories, these images, these visuals, the audio could all be used to propel that forward. And of course, we're fans of change here at the Visual Lounge. We're always trying things, always changing things. So if you like what you hear, make sure you like and subscribe on YouTube, or if you're on the podcast, we really love it. Like, I don't I don't want to beg here, but leave a review, re leave a rating that helps us get found, helps others find us so that they can learn from us as well. And of course, really, what we really want from each of you is just to take a little bit of time to level up every single day. Thanks everybody.