SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is a seminal moment, and it's an exciting moment as well. I wish I was in my twenties or thirties again, able to start anew. I can't, but I can support you in doing what you're doing, and I wish you the best of luck in this exciting new adventure.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are and wherever you're watching from. My name is Matt Pierce. Today we're gonna be talking with Donald Taylor about the Global Sentiment Survey. Now, we did this last year, but there's a new survey, new information, and new results. So with that said, we're gonna go ahead and dive in. So, Donald, welcome to the Visual Lounge. Matt, great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Well, thank you first of all for coming back. We we'd love to hear the global about the global server survey because honestly, it's chalked full with so many great pieces of information. It's one of those things like as I read through, it's like, oh, that's interesting. Then I get a little further and like, oh, that's even more interesting. So lots of lots of good stuff here. But for those who may not be initiated or familiar with the sentiment survey, give us a little bit of the background and what are we looking at?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

The survey has been running for 13 years. We look at the pulse of how learning and development feels about what's happening. Typically, about three and a half thousand people answer the survey. This year it's nearly 3,800 from over 100 countries. There are three key questions. What do you think will be hot in the year ahead? What's your challenge for the year ahead in learning and development? And new this year, what have you done in the past 12 months that's new in learning and development? About half of the respondents come from workplace learning and development. The rest are consultants, vendors, they come from the education space, or it's something else.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Okay, so a a good mix, and a little bit later, I think we'll I want to talk about the that mix and how it might be influencing things, which is in the report this year. Um so you mentioned the the one question that's that's new, which uh is there anything else that's maybe new or stood out to you this year from that maybe is just wildly different from past years?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Well, one thing I'm very relieved about is that uh artificial intelligence, which has topped the table and has been going through a meteoric rise in terms of what people think is hot, has finally leveled off. So that's a relief more than a surprise. I am I was surprised this year by how many people responded and how much they wrote in answer to the question what are your challenges for this year ahead? So I'll talk about the challenges question later on, but it was more than we've ever had. And it left me with a slight problem of how do I read 41,000 words, which is like a a book, uh, and make sense of it all in the short time I have to write the report. In the end, I had to use AI to assist me. It turned out to be incredibly useful.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Yeah. Well, that I mean that is that is a massive amount, and I think there it does beg a little bit of the question of is it the fact that there's just greater volume, or is it that people are trying new things, or what what maybe prompted that kind of level of response?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

If you look at the responses to this question since we started running it, and we've run it, as I say, for five years. Now, if we look back to how people have responded to it, in 2022, when we started it, 40% of people responded, and that was about 14,000 words. In 2023, again 40%, and roughly the same number of year words. The following year, 2024, was the first year because we run the survey at the end of the year, so it was people's reaction to the year 2023. At that point, the response rate leapt up to 95%, and the number of words written was about 25,000, 26,000. So that was a huge jump. It hasn't gone back since. The proportion dropped a bit last year, got back to 95% this year. The number of words written, as I say, went up to 41,000. So I think what's happening, and reading through the responses, I get the view that the world of learning and development has fundamentally changed with the introduction of AI. And it's not just what you can do with it, but it's how people feel about our profession and what we do. And underlying it all, there is a base of uncertainty, which is tinged, on the one hand, with excitement, and the other with fear.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah, and I and I as I go out to different events and shows and talk to different people, I I feel like that's a very solid take on the theme that people are feeling. There's a lot of unknown. Now, let's let's talk about AI in the report because last year AI had like skyrocketed in terms of its uh uh appearance on the report, and this year, like you said, it leveled out a little bit. So, from your perspective, uh, you know, you get to prognosticate a little bit here about like, hey, you know, you're making your best guesses, as we know. Uh why do we think maybe it's peaked here? Is it is this uh a result that things are changing with AI, or is there something, maybe something else that we should be looking at in terms of how L and D is using AI?

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Just to be quite clear about what what I mean when I say it's peaked, what I mean is that the responses to the question, what's going to be hot in LD this year, have topped out. It's it's 0.1 of a percent, very small drop from last year, down from last year. It does not mean that AI is done. It does not mean uh the excitement and the hype is over. It doesn't even mean that we have an idea of how to use it. What it means is that the acceleration of interest has finally slowed. It's a bit like saying, yeah, well, we hit the freeway, we're now at 70 miles an hour, we're still driving at 70 miles an hour. The last three years we've been speeding up, we're there now, we haven't reached our destination. So that's what I mean when I say it's peaked. Now, there's still an awful lot going on. I don't have to guess about how AI is being used because in the report AI and LD, the race for impact, that was the annual report on AI and LD that Eggle Vinuskeita, my co-author and I brought out in September last year. In that, we look at 20 pages of case studies. We interviewed a lot of people, got a tremendous amount of information back, and we look at what people are really doing with AI. And I would say there's two levels of change here, and then we can we can I'll I'll I'll briefly sketch that and then you can come back at me. There's the tactical change, how am I using AI to do things? And there's the strategic change, how is AI altering how learning and development in my organization and perhaps the organization itself is run? There's two very different levels. We're seeing both, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah, and and I I love the analogy of the the we've been on the the freeway. In in your in your probably reading of the comments and um the challenges people are facing, do you do you get the sense that that part of that may be that, hey, we've got up to speed, that is there pushback towards A and AI in L and D versus I know there's excitement because I see it like you know, as someone who stands at a trade show booth occasionally with a tool that has some AI, I I see the excitement. I also get the sense that there's kind of this other side of the coin, that there's L and D, as you said, uncertainty. Uh so what would you tell us about what's what's maybe going on under there in terms of the uncertainty or discomfort? Uh anything else you would add to that?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

There's a whole range of different answers to that, Matt. I'll try to be concise. Firstly, people are concerned about AI's impact on their jobs if their job is creating materials, learning content. And they are right. They're right, not because AI can automatically create material which is better than what they can create, but because it can do it so much cheaper. It can do it at one-tenth, one hundredth of the cost. If it's doing that, the people who pay the bills, who write the checks for LD are going to ask themselves, why do we why do we pay this team? And I'm just being brutally honest about this. It's not, it doesn't mean everyone's going to lose their jobs. I do know, and the numbers are there, showing there has been uh LD slowdowns, that people who are out of work are finding it more difficult to secure a new job than they were in the past. It's taking much longer. And that's true. Recent countries I've talked to, UK, US, Philippines, Australia, uh, New Zealand. So that's across the board as far as I can see. So there's a real concern there. At a higher level, there's concerns about and and this is geographically focused differently. So if you look at Italy, the focus is on the quality of materials that can be created. If you look at US, there's concern about the um the guardrails, the implementation being done in a uh way that is responsible. Uh, if you look at the UK, there are look at Europe generally, actually, there are concerns about representation in AI. Are we are we serving our communities properly? So there's, if you like, there's ethical concerns. Beyond that, I think there's a fundamental question which sort of seeps through in the responses to the question, what's your challenge? And when people talk about AI. I talk about that survey running, the question running for five years. In 2022 and 2023, the word human wasn't mentioned at all. Since the launch of Chat GPT, uh it has increased each year. This year it was mentioned 68 times. So that's pretty extraordinary. That a word that wasn't in our vocabulary at all suddenly becomes part of what we're talking about. And I think that's two things. I think firstly it's people saying, well, we want to make sure that we don't lose the human side of learning. But I think underneath that there's something else, which is people in LMD feeling an identification, a human identification with this and what they're doing, and feeling that AI risks ripping that away from them. So there's a lot of concern about AI, and I think most of it is well-founded, but it takes different flavors according to where you are in the world and what your job is.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah. Well, and I I know that, and AI just seems to be the hot topic, and we could we could continue talking, but I want I and as much as I think I think people can go read the report, they can get their take their own sense of what's happening with AI and L and D, I do want to look at something else that was in the report that stood out to me. When I looked at the list, one of the things that had changed that had a seemingly big significant change comparatively was the learning analytics. The focus on what's hot is learning analytics. It had a, I think what, 1.2% drop. Um, you know, now that's you know, the top 16, which was I think the largest one. Um it but the other kind of contrast to that was showing value was up like 0.7%. So help me help me understand the juxtaposition here because I I guess maybe uh inappropriately or maybe not with clarity, uh said, oh gosh, I want to show value. I need to show my analytics. Like my analytics are gonna be important. So tell us a little bit about any insights on those two changes there.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

And just to be clear, for people who are listening and saying, well, these sound like small numbers, I mean they are small numbers, but they in the scope of the survey, these are big numbers. So showing value went up 0.7%, and learning analytics was easily the biggest drop this year, 1.2%. And the what this means is that for me, the interpretation I get talking to people about this and listening to them. If I ask people what is the reason for value showing value rising so much this year, people say one of two things. Either, well, it's because we can use AI to show value, but most people say it's fear. We're concerned about our job losses, our job and and what will happen to them. And there's a there's one of the quotes in the survey uh absolutely deals with this. Uh you ask people what's your greatest, what's your greatest uh fear for the future, and one of the or what's your greatest challenge for the year ahead, and one of the one of the comments all the person wrote was, I need to provide value to avoid redundancy. And so the idea is you're going to provide value because if you don't you you you'd lose your job. But why is analytics on the way down? It makes perfect sense that you use the power of AI to manipulate the data to show value and to improve the learning analytics. And the concern is not that it's not an important thing, but that people are seduced by the power of AI to personalize rather than being rather than wanting to grab the opportunity to get in there and look at the learning analytics. And I think for me this tells a story about learning and development as a whole, which is that we are focused typically on content creation and distribution. So personalization is an easy quick win with AI. But in contrast, learning analytics requires not just the use of technology, this new technology, but also a leap into doing something we don't normally do, which is looking at data, analyzing it, making correlations, explaining them. That is something so far beyond the normal role of LMD that people would rather not think about it. And so the learning analytics has got into what uh some people I was talking to recently called the too hard bucket. It just is a bit too much to do. We'd rather concentrate on the personalization. And I think that's dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah, it feels it feels especially dangerous. And I I can imagine with the added pressures that L and D teams have, that they're also feeling if we're trying to already ramp up and scale because AI is making it faster and cheaper to do, then if I have to say, well, I need more time to go and get these things to show analytics, oh, too hard, too much time. I could do the more, I could do five more courses, right? Ten more courses.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

People are maxed out. Look, people are maxed out. This is it's a it's a real thing. I'm not trying to make out people are being lazy. People are super maxed out just trying to get the day job done, and creating content takes time. And if you're working on creating a course, you know you've got to create it, edit it, go through an iterative process. You don't have any more hours in the day to do this new complicated thing of learning analytics. Um but I think what makes this such a seminal moment for learning and development is the fact that we don't have a choice about it. AI is going to undermine the proposition, the value proposition of us as content creators. Because it's so easy to create content and anybody can do it now, that it's very difficult to say, well, mine's better than his or hers, because well, why? Well, because I'm an instructional designer, yeah, okay. But the person writing the checks doesn't see that. They just see the price tag. Content's going to become commoditized. Faced with that, even if it is difficult, even if it's something that's unusual, we have to start doing things which are new to us, but still fall within the remote of learning and development, and which provide value to the organization. We can talk a bit more about that uh a bit later on. But I think that's the crucial thing about this time right now is that we have no option to stay as we are. We've got to change.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah. Uh well, I I appreciate the the blunt and directness there because I I I think it well, I think it's important, right? As someone who has, you know, grown up in this industry and been part of it for a long time, I I it it is it is true that we need to change, and there's things that are going to continue to change, and there's there's definitely a lot of uncertainty. Uh, I also I also wonder, like, when it comes to showing value, and I think about like just in my own experiences, and I I mostly sit in a marketing department now versus like time I spent you know a decade in LD directly, that the the mechanisms I have as a marketer to look at analytics, to tie data together is greatly and vastly superior to anything I ever had access to, even when I started adding in like an LMS or other pieces that could potentially provide data. And so I do wonder if some of the this new world is figuring out, hey, we need systems that are gonna allow us to do what we need to do to show much better, much more uh clearly than I think most average LD person will have access to.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

I think you're 100% right. And I think marketing is a very good analogy to draw with LD because we know that marketing has been transformed uh in in two ways in, let's say, the last two decades. Firstly, it's been transformed not just by the internet, but largely by the use of the web, from a solely creative endeavour to something with strong numbers attached to it. And the idea of madmen sitting around drinking whiskey sours and considering what advert they should put up with what tagline is just gone. Yes, you still need the creativity, but there's a whole swathe of statistics behind it. The same thing is going to be happening to LD with this additional concern that uh, by the way, the stuff you used to do, which was your bread and butter creating courses, yeah, almost certainly within five years, I would say the soup to nuts course will be dead, with some exceptions. So the idea that everyone has to come in and do a course that begins here and finishes there, I don't think it's going to be happening in the future. Doesn't mean content's dead, but the old way of doing things is dead. We have to change with it. There's lots of things we can do, but we have to change. And you're absolutely right. We can take a steer from marketing. We also need to ask ourselves, why haven't we done it before? Part of the reason we haven't done it before is that LD, it's a it's it's a good feeling to sit down and create something that's a good product. You know, we like that. We have to get out away from that and be much more in contact with the business, having relationships with all with parts of the business where we can say, hey, look, I want to check something. Can I get your data just so I can see that what we're doing here is making sense? That very simple request is something that relies on a relationship with that department so that you can go to them knowing that they know who you are, knowing that they take you seriously, and knowing that they are likely to say yes when you ask them for their data. If you're an L and D, ask yourself, can you do that right now? How would sales think about you if you knocked on their door and said, Can I have your sales data for the last quarter? Some might say yes, other people might just say, Who are you? And I think we talk a lot about technology, but the future for LD relies on analytics, yes, data, yes, but ultimately having the relationship with a business that you can go in and ask for the data and be trusted to receive it.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah. Gosh, so many, so many thoughts that I will save for another time. But uh, because I do I do want to ask going down this this value kind of road already, I want to ask you quickly on page 13 of the report, it talks about uh the role that maybe impact vendors have had on on the research. Um I believe it's that vendors are potentially driving up this issue of showing value. And I just want to get your take. Is that is that a concern that you have? Is that like and and someone as a vendor, right? Like obviously I have my own kind of take and perception of the world versus maybe someone who's truly sitting in an LD department who has no care about anything other than I want to do a good job in LD. Um any thoughts about was that like I it was enough to be mentioned that it there's this potential there. Obviously, uh research data, you know, you gotta look at the numbers, you gotta kind of you're reading between the lines a little bit. So I was just curious before uh we leave the value topic, if there's something there.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

So I divide the audience up between five different what I call work groups. Half of them are in workplace learning development, the rest are split across being a consultant, being a vendor, being in education, or something else. Now, there are something like 305. So about 10% of the responses, slightly less, are vendors. But whereas the LD people ranked showing value as sixth on their overall results, for vendors it was the second most important thing after AI. And I think we have to ask ourselves why. And I think that for the vendors it's it's important on two levels. Firstly, they have to show value themselves, but secondly, they recognize what's going on here, they recognize that it's crucial for learning and development to show value in the organizations, uh, L and D being their customers. If L and D isn't showing value, there's a risk to the vendor. So I think it's not altruistic, but the vendors recognize there's an issue here that needs to be tackled. And they they see this and they raise it as an issue. They can't necessarily do much about it. Although some vendors I know will be supporting the LD workplace people in actually showing value.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah. Uh I I love that perspective, right? Because I do think uh if you're if your audience is LD and you're selling to LD and LD doesn't see continues to exist, you're gonna want them to show all the Yeah, big big problem. Uh your your whole market dries up pretty quickly that way. Um the other thing I want to talk about with from an audience perspective, you mentioned uh, I think this was, I don't know if this is the first year you did, but it seemed like it was new to me that you split the audience in kind of like new people that were coming into the report this year versus returning. And and there were some differences in the way they ranked kind of what they thought was going to be the hot thing that they're gonna focus on. Any any insights into like why are new people maybe seemingly so different than what the returning folks said? Is it that returning folks have Like maybe context of insight of the report or uh maybe something else?

SPEAKER_01 22:04

It's a really good question, Matt. And it comes down to who's answering this survey. So there are people out there who have never heard of the survey, will never answer it, they're not interested. Fine. The people who do answer the survey, there are a number of things they have to be. They have to be online, they have to have heard about it, they have to be probably interested enough in new stuff, probably technology, to respond. Okay, so that's a subset. Now, within that, there are at least two groups. One group is the group that knows about the survey, is interested in the topics that are being raised, is keen to come and share their views. And actually, we identified this group back in 2018, but it was it was very difficult to know who they were. It's much easier now. Now I've got people, now I know if people are coming back or not. So we've got people who know about it and are responding quickly to it. Usually they respond to social media. And then you've got the other people we send an email to and they hear about it, and they probably it's the first time and they respond to it. So the difference between these two groups is that the people who are familiar with the survey and are coming in ready with an opinion that they want to share. And interestingly, the people who are coming back for who are coming for the first time say less in terms of venturing new opinions than the people who have been on the survey before. So the people who come in who've who've done the survey before typically are keen to share their views and they are keen to talk about the stuff they've been immersed in during the year on social media. And I think that's the key thing. They feel themselves to be part of a conversation, they want to continue that conversation. What that means is that they are almost the embodiment of the current conversation on steroids. So are they interested in AI? Yes, they absolutely are, more so than anybody else. So they they are like 3% higher on an artificial intelligence than the new people. They are also very keen on showing value because this is a topic that is relentlessly pushed online in conversation. But they're much less interested in learning experience platforms, for example, because for them that's business as usual, done and dusted. So if you imagine the Everett Rogers diffusion of innovation curve, uh the people who respond to the survey are right at one end of it. But probably the people who come back are the innovators, and the people who are coming for the first time are more like the early adopters. So they're both at the at one end of the curve, but the people who come back year after year are the people who are really at the cutting edge talking about this stuff. Whether they're doing it, I can't tell. It's a piece of further research I need to do in the future.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah. So I I I guess just looking ahead, uh, you know, let's say we get five years down the road, we get a chance to talk again. We've done, well, that would be, let's see, we'd be at what 19 years. Let's say we get to the 20th year of the report. Whether you want to do it or not, I don't know. Uh, hopefully it keeps going. But like, would you hope, what would you hope to see from the audience? Would you want to see, you know, if you're thinking about that curve, do you want to see kind of more people coming from different parts of the curve to maybe more accurately re represent? Do you want to keep it kind of where it is? What what would you hope for?

SPEAKER_01 25:24

I I don't think there's any way of changing that composition. I think the people who choose to respond, because it's voluntary, will always be people, typically of that part of the curve. I would like to do other surveys and other research where I talk not to LD at all, but to operations and the executive suite. Ask them, well, what's their view on all this? And it would be, I can guarantee, completely different. Um, but what I do plan to do over time is to look at this business of the new voters and the returning voters and see if there is a shift in the pattern so that if one year the new voters are particularly excited about something, for me that's shows that it's something that's been talked about online a lot. Does that then lead to in the following year or the year after the new people also finding it exciting? Does that excitement transfer or are the new people largely talking in a bubble? Oh, sorry, are the existing people largely talking in a bubble? Or is it between the two? Are there some topics which will never get widespread exposure? And are there other topics which have what it takes to go wide?

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Yeah, I almost wonder if you could take that and then correlate it with uh various conference sessions that are submitted and uh accepted at conferences and see, because my guess is there's some influence there, right? Uh I'll tell you what you can do.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

You with reskilling and upskilling, for example, it is very easy to see that um everything kicked off with the January 2020 um report from the World Economic Forum talking about reskilling and upskilling. You you look at the Google trends on that, bang, there's a there's a huge kick afterwards to that curve, and it gets reflected in the survey. 2016, there was a huge input of um funds, VC funds, into companies selling microlearning in the States, which led to increased spending on marketing, which led to a 2017 increase in microlearning being a big thing on the survey. So there are some times where we absolutely can measure something. I don't think I've got the willpower to go and track every conference session, though, Matt. Somebody else can do that one.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Well, maybe that is a perfect use for AI to go and do the research, right? Um well, Donald, I do want to ask uh one more question before we wrap up. And I want to I want to read a little bit from the report about the conclusion because I do think we've talked about a lot of things. We've talked about kind of the anxiety and fear I think the the industry is feeling, the challenges that they're facing, not just with AI, but just across the board. I think it's we're in it again, as I think as we started our show, may you be cursed to live in interesting times. So so here's what it says it says for LD, this transformation is already here. AI is making new things possible with content creation, personalization, skills management, simulations, and more. Combine this with uncertainty around the economy and job security, and it seems that the old norms are breaking down. The new norms are yet to emerge, and it's in this chaos that the future will be decided. Inevitably, there's no clear route map for navigating this new world. Instead, LD will have to draw from it, uh draw its own charting a course through experimentation, pivoting when things don't work, redoubling efforts when they do. So you've you've been in the industry for quite a while and you've seen a lot of the trends and understand, I think, maybe better than most, uh, the directions that we're headed, the challenges that are faced. What advice or wisdom would you give to someone who's reading this and saying, oh my gosh, I just I don't know. I don't know if I where how how am I going to navigate this current day circumstances that we're in?

SPEAKER_01 29:03

I'd say don't look backwards, look forwards. Because right now the past is not an accurate guide to the future. The past was great. And I grew up writing and delivering classroom courses in the 1980s. Great. Still exists that business, but it's a smaller proportion of what LD can do. There will always be a role for courses, there will always be a role for content, they will both change. Now, with new technologies, there is a vast new series of things that we can do, which we haven't had the ability to do before because it just took too much effort. Simulations, skills practice, surfacing and sharing implicit knowledge, understanding the skills of the organization, providing coaching and mentoring as a combination of human and machine activity. There's a whole range of things which previously were just beyond our reach, but now we can do. So don't look backwards to the world of content. Look forwards and find which of these things we can experiment with that you are good at and which work for the business. I think the phrase I use in the report is we do not have a map, but we do have a direction. The direction stays the same. The direction is we need to get to that point where we are helping individuals as part of the organization. Fine. We just find a new way to do it. And you find that by trying things out, as I say, if it works, continue, if it doesn't, stop. But also, and this is important, by sharing that with other people. So if we all work together and we share with our networks what's working, we're in a much better position to build great stuff for the future than everybody running a series of experiments replicating each other's failures. Let's support each other and let's work towards the future much faster and more efficiently.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Yeah, of all the industries, I feel like that is uh that is a great call, right? Like because the things that we're learning and work well, we can transfer. And it's not you know, it's not necessarily proprietary. Some technology, some ideas are proprietary, but hey, this is been good for learning. That's good for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Well, well, Donald, this has been uh a fantastic conversation. Uh I don't know if my listeners care or not, but I have enjoyed it greatly. I hope they did. Uh, but so you know, people want to learn more about the Global Sentiment Survey, they want to learn more to you with you, uh, from you, connect with you, where should they go?

SPEAKER_01 31:37

I I I'm Donald H. Taylor everywhere. So online, LinkedIn in particular, just find me on LinkedIn, Donald H. Taylor, or my website is donald htaylor.co.uk. Uh would be great to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Absolutely. Well, Donald, as we wrap up the show, we like to ask our guests for their their kind of final view and final take. So, Donald Taylor, what is your final take?

SPEAKER_01 32:01

I'm in my 60s now. I've been doing this for a long time. I can say with certainty, this is a seminal moment, and it's an exciting moment as well. I wish I was in my twenties or thirties again, able to start anew. I can't, but I can support you in doing what you're doing, and I wish you the best of luck in this exciting new adventure.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

All right. Well, Donald, thank you so much for joining me in the Visual Lounge.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Great to be here. Thanks, Matt.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

You bet. Well, everybody, you heard it. We're in times that are uh changing quickly. There's lots going on. A couple of things I want to just highlight make sure you're sharing what you're learning, about learning, sharing what's working, what's not working, and look for the new opportunities that are gonna lead you to success. Don't keep focusing on the things that don't work, but look for the things that are. Look for ways that you can continue to grow those skill sets. There's the world abounds in opportunity if you look for it. So, with that said, we're grateful for you to listen to the show. If you got comments, feedback you'd like to connect with us, you can always reach out at the visual lounge at techsmith.com. And as always, take a little time to level up every single day.