SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think actually I got a lot out of this and I got a lot out of listening to your podcast because I mean just the fact that story does is the most important thing and emotional storytelling is I think what really, really makes the world go round. And I think that's, you know, you help drive that home. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are and wherever you're watching from. Today on the Visual Lounge, we're gonna be talking about good visual stories. Now, you might be thinking, Matt, we've talked about visual stories, but I think there's always more to learn. We wanna get not just the kind of the intellectual side of things, but we wanna pull in stories. And so we've got a storyteller here, a visual storyteller, to help talk to us about how we can do that, things that we should be thinking about to help us make us better. So let me go ahead and introduce our guest. If you've ever wondered how a single person can go from swimming with sharks in the Galapagos to directing a musical comedy in a small Texas town, all while making both look like a million bucks, you've got you're going to love today's guest. Stuart Cohen is a filmmaker and photographer who has spent his career capturing capturing life's most authentic moments for brands like Coca-Cola and AT ⁇ T. But isn't just a guy with a camera. He's a specialist in finding the best light in any situation, no matter how chaotic. Today, we're diving into how he navigates different genres, tells human stories that actually resonate, and why he's known as a safe bet who isn't afraid to take big risks. Well, with that said, please welcome Stuart Cohen to the Visual Lounge. Hey Stuart.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

How are you? That was a nice intro. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

You are welcome. I I've got to ask, okay, Galapagos to smell was that I I'm guessing there's some space between that, or did you get out of the water, head to Texas, and direct these?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

No, I mean, pretty much my career has been on planes and going places. So one of the reasons I got into it is I like to travel and I wanted to travel and meet people, and that's kind of I follow followed the dream and it's worked.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

That's awesome. So help us understand a little bit. So you obviously you've done a lot of things and you've worked with brands and kind of from a marketing perspective. Uh you wanted to travel, but what has drawn you personally to this idea of visual storytelling?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

I think it found me, Matt, as opposed to me finding it. I think what's really interesting about what I do is we interact with people from all cultures, all walks of life, you know, whether they be real people off the street, people working in a factory, celebrities, models, doesn't matter. As long as there's a human on the other side of the camera, I love working with them. And through that, I realized I learned early on that I know how to ask questions and I know how to talk to them, and everyone has a story. No matter who they are, no matter what they do, everyone has a story, and everyone has an interesting story if you know how to ask the questions. And I think that's been something that I've really gravitated toward, and I think it comes out in the way people are able to relax on the other side of the camera because we're really engaged with them, regardless of what we're doing, whether it's a whether it's a Gatorade commercial of people, you know, on a track running or an American Airlines spot where they're sitting in a in a business class seat flying to Europe. It doesn't matter. As long as there's a person there, I'm the guy.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

I I love that. So help us uh in your body of work, are you typically like tell us a little bit about the work? I mean, I imagine there's some kind of documentary style work if you're really loving the people behind the camera, commercials. What are some of the things that you've, you know, we might have seen maybe or you have worked on?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Well, as as much as I'd love to say it's documentary and and really good for humanity, I I do work in the marketing space. Um and and I've chosen that for a variety of reasons. Um one, of course, one's able to make a living. And also, you know, our projects are shorter than if you were working, say, on a feature film or a documentary. And early on, I made that decision that if I wanted to also have a life, like a wife, family, it would be easier in the marketing space, in that you know, our projects are maybe two weeks as opposed to if you're doing a feature, you know, and you might be in Namimbia for two years. So it's um so so so they're predominantly in the marketing space, um, shorter projects, um, a lot of them do tell stories, although we have to learn how to tell stories in 30 seconds or 60 seconds, maybe two minutes if I'm lucky. That's kind of the sweet spot for what we do.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, well, well, I love that because I do think one of the things uh as someone who's been learning video for 20 years now, that the one of the challenges is often uh working in the constraints. Constraints are great. They create creativity, they create opportunity. Um, but I think a lot of people who are probably listeners of the show struggle because it's hard to condense down an idea or a story to something that's compelling in 30 seconds, whether that's a marketing spot for, like you said, Gatorade or an airline or a piece of information that I want you to learn and retain. What advice would you give to folks about using those constraints in their video creation, filmmaking, whatever it might be doing?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

I gotta say, you know, as you as you put it that way, and when I think about it, it's you know, I've been trained to do it, of course, because that's what we have to deal with. And, you know, we always overshoot, there's no question. Um but when you learn to tell that story, I think working with good editors has really been an education for me because you know, here we'll we'll we'll hand off hard drives to a great editor with a lot of hours of footage, and they could distill it down to that story in 30 seconds. Granted, we have storyboards and stuff and we thought about it. But you really need to think about every cut and every take and how that moves the story forward. And I think it's a good training for anybody because you know, the last thing anyone wants to watch is a documentary or a or even a feature that just drags. And maybe I'm a little bit more like that. Like when I'm watching a movie, you know, and and somebody takes 45 seconds to get from the car to the front door, even though it might work in the context of the movie, I'm like, dude, you could have gotten there faster, you know. Um I'm starting to think it's like, okay, let's tell the story. Cut to it, cut to it.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah, I well, yeah, absolutely. Right. And I think uh, I mean, look, I'm on a podcast that goes for 30 minutes, and I will often like, yeah, there's probably things that even right now, people are like, get to the next question, Matt. Uh so so when you when you're going through, so you're you're on the front end, right? Obviously, great editors are awesome and they do all that work, but before that, you've got your storyboard, your script. But when you get to that site, you're looking at, you know, you've got your camera, you've got to make things work. What's the mental checklist you're going through for just even getting just good kind of visuals that that will work? I mean, I know there's lots of different criteria based on the needs and the settings and all that stuff, but you have a like a mental checklist you go through?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Oh, I totally, absolutely. Um, of course, so we have a script, and recently it's been it used to be the scripts were really tight, and it's like you walk in and this is the way the shot wants to be. These days it's a little looser in that you know, I will go into the location when we find a location. Take a script, we look for locations. When we find a location, we'll go in there with a still camera, and I'll have some people with me usually. And I basically shoot every angle that I think could work and where it will work. And then I go back and I'll take that and I'll create a shooting board from that, which moves the story forward. So, like we just did something last week which we way overshot, and my editor said, Okay, this is great, longer. I mean, I'm happy you got you got it, but like you didn't need all of that. But everything seemed to me like it could work. So I think what's important is mapping it out in advance, like knowing the key points you want to do. Now, I know some people do live stuff where they just have to show up and shoot, and that's really experience and training, which helps there, because I'm I'm a pretty visual filmmaker, and it I've always had an eye that is looks for the beautiful, as opposed to you know, a documentarian that looks for the dark and grungy. Like one of the criticisms of me is been is like it's been like your stuff's too shiny. Like we really try to graphically make it a pleasing shot, and that's just kind of where my brain is wired. Um so we'll go into location, I'll find every angle that I think I want to do, we'll place people in it, you know. I'll try to get them kind of doing what the action's supposed to be, and and then I'll lay it out. And of course, then we're for the most part, usually working with ad agencies. Um, you know, we do a presentation to them and make sure they're aligned. Sometimes there are some changes. Like, well, what if we do this instead of that? So we shuffle stuff around. Usually when they do that, I make sure that we always shoot it both ways, of course. So we have that ability. And um and then once we get into the editing suite, you know, our editors will make a couple of rough cuts with you know subtle variations that we post and share, and then we could discuss with the clients.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah, well, I I love that the one that you're doing this uh very visual thing. I I love that walkthrough. I think that's a very practical thing that anyone making video, whether it's a learning video, marketing video, whatever, that's super helpful, right, to visualize. Um, I also love that it's a step in the stakeholder process that they can they could see, they can visualize. Oh, right, I see I see what that location's gonna look like with people doing those things. So I I I think that's fan just a fantastic. Uh I'm I'm stealing it by the way. Sorry. We're we're we're taking it. We're using it.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah. But I mean the learning ones, you know, I've done stuff like corporate um some corporate testimonial type stuff with spokespeople that is pretty simple, but yet you still want to make sure the shot is pleasing, you know, and even if it's a shot or maybe with a B cam, you know, just to cover some some variations, I mean, you you want to make, I mean, you think about what's pleasing to the eye. So, you know, people's attention spans are so short now. So the one thing you want to do is when something pops on the screen, you want them to be engaged. You want them to immediately feel compelled to watch the whole thing. And I think part of that is making it look good. Um, because it's it's you know, it's an instantaneous thing that if people use, especially, you know, in today's world where stuff is being posted socially or on YouTube or you know, anywhere, it's like how fast can you scroll past stuff? Or even if it's a pre-roll like on Hulu, you know, I what do you I think it's you have to watch for the first five seconds. So you got to suck them in like right then, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, that that drop-off rate is uh killer if you don't hook them to watch, right? I'm curious if you like as you work with clients, I'm thinking about like uh what advice would you what do you want clients to know about kind of the visual aspect of storytelling? I'm thinking like uh as we talk, my whoever's listening to the audience, they've got a stakeholder, they've got a client, if you will, and that they're trying to help them be convinced that there's this aesthetic look that needs to happen, or we need to use this location or or do these things. What what would you want, like if you could say to the client, all the clients, stakeholders out there, like, hey, here's a few things that you should know that will make your video better aesthetically, and you should let your people run with, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

That's an interesting one. So you're thinking about from the stakeholders' perspective?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah, what do you want them to know? Like, if you like you're coming into a shoot, right, and you're saying to them, we're gonna do this thing, here's I don't know, three things I wish you every every of my stakeholders would know about what I bring to this, what visuals you bring to the to the table.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Well, one, I think understanding of the project. And and that's the number one thing we see is that when not everyone's aligned. Um for the most part, though, once you get into the blocking and the locations, now granted, you sometimes, at least in my world, we need to get the locations approved. You know, we'll we'll have location photos and we show the the clients like this is where we're recommending and here's why. And usually, for the most part, they'll they'll go along with us. And then it's up to us back to setting the shot, lighting the shot, so on and so forth. I mean, I think I think people need to let the people they hire do their job, but at the same time, their job should be on the front end is making sure they hire the right people. You know, I mean, and if you hire the right people, you need to let them go, let them do their thing. And and I think so that's number one deal. And I think in in my world, at least, you know, when you have ad agencies in between clients and us, I mean, sometimes it's been a little rocky, but for the most part, it it's it's a smooth process. And the clients trust because they have trust in the ad agency or the marketing firm that turned around and hired us. So there's a trust all the way around. Like, you know, the marketing firm, whomever hired us, trusts us to bring our A game, and vice versa, you know, their client trusts them. So there's a lot of trust, but at the same time, I think if you see something that doesn't seem right, at least ask the question. And I do feel like pre-production is the time to do that. And I and I think what we've seen, and I'm sure a lot of people have experienced, is everybody's busy, and a lot of times, sometimes just stuff happens and people weren't paying attention as as a production company was doing the pre-pro. And next thing you know, you show up on set and they're like, ooh, that was not what I was thinking. And I'm like, yeah, but the shoot day is the big money day. I mean, that that meter starts ticking, like for a crews and locations, and that's the wrong time to say uncle, you know. Um, so so I do feel like speaking to a stakeholder is like be engaged and ask questions on the front end, as many questions as you want, and be comfortable with the team that you're working with. And it's okay if you end up having an extra hour conversation that runs into the evening because you need to be comfortable and you need to un and and you wanna un you want to know that they understand what you're up against. You know, you you you probably have superiors that you have to answer to, you have a story you have to tell, or you have a marketing budget you need to stay within. So it's like it's your baby. But I have seen a lot of people that are so, you know, people are so stretched these days that sometimes they just put their trust in you, which is great. And and we are, as you said in in my intro, we are known for delivering it. Like we'll deliver. So, but I think people run into challenges sometimes in that people don't deliver and and they get an edit and they're like, ooh, that's not what I want.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Well, I think that's uh awesome advice because I do think it is sometimes uh it's hard to realize if you've not been on the the back end of shooting, and then you're in the editing bay and someone's like, no, no, no, no, that's not what we want. It's like we can't go back. And if we do, you're not gonna be satisfied with the results or the cost, right? So I think really good advice.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

But on that note, Matt, I'm actually I'm slowly getting to the point of optimism that if there's a thought that needs adjustment and needs a little bit of tweaking, I really think that incorporating some AI into some of our practices is gonna save a lot of projects. I really, or or at least mold them the way you want them to go. I do feel like that's gonna be a plus.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yeah, for sure. Uh, you know, the the world of AI is not set yet, and so there's uh who knows what we're gonna see. It's gonna be crazy. So as you as a storyteller, um, help help us understand, because again, you're doing like these short three 30 seconds to two minutes. Are there structures that are like your go-to structures, or maybe it's not even full structures, but are there kind of things that you you pull from your bag of tricks that are on the regular that just help you to be a better visual storyteller? And of course, there's always always technique, right? And I think you want good you want a good shot angle, you want to be in focus, you want good lighting, you want the right settings, all that. But uh, from that storytelling perspective, are there things that you could share with us that help just make that your, you know, give it the little something that you have and bring to the table?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Sure. I mean, granted, I say I think one of the things I do sometimes is I overshoot the story because I think about it in a narrative fashion. So I think about it like we're saying we're making a movie, and you think about all the angles, all the cutaways, all the reverse shots, all that stuff. And I really, granted, time permitting, you know, trying to capture every angle because one never knows what little shot might be the bridge to get to the crux of the story. And sometimes it's just a little nothing shot, you know, but yet if you don't have it, it's really hard to get to the crux of the story. So, I mean, I I really do think about everything we're trying to shoot and every story we're trying to tell, and and think about how would the viewer naturally gravitate to this story. Like, I don't feel like I was somewhere just yesterday and someone said, Well, they'll get it. They'll get it. I'm like, ooh, I don't know if they're gonna get it. Like, you know, we're we're into short stories here, and I think sometimes you need to spoon feed it a little bit, and sometimes spoon feeding is the best way. And and people probably nine times out of ten are half distracted when they watch it anyway. So show them what it is, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, uh it's a it's a directness, right? Don't assume, don't assume the audience understands.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

No, exactly. It's and even though you may, you know, like uh there there was one of your one of your podcasts that I was listening to, it's like, whoa, that just took a left turn. And it was like I had to go back and re-listen to it because I didn't understand. So I, you know, I and I think in the in the marketing space, I don't think you get the do-overs a lot, you know, if if it doesn't if it doesn't land the first time, sometimes you don't get a second chance.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah, you're you're probably as a marketing team, you're gonna say, that didn't work, let's move on to the thing that will work, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Exactly. Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

So you you had brought up AI earlier, and I am curious, kind of as your perspective as a visual storyteller at this point, doing lots of stuff. Obviously, what you mentioned that, hey, maybe AI could help save some shots. Uh, what does the world of AI look like in in your world and how is it how is it getting applied maybe uh regularly, or maybe what you're you're starting to just explore?

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Well, it is being applied. We've had projects kind of yanked from us even during pre-production because somebody decided they were gonna knock it out in AI. And I looked at the final product, they they shared it with me, which we were not involved with. And I'm like, okay, like it got the job done. I mean, it wasn't gonna win any awards. I don't think it really tugged on any heartstrings. Um, but you gotta just let it go. And and the agent, they were honest with me and they said, look, but we saved $80,000 doing it. You know, and I'm like, okay, I mean, you gotta, you, you gotta say, okay. So I mean, that's early days of it. I do think it's gonna get better. I don't know if everything we do will incorporate it. I incorporate AI. I think you're still gonna need emotion, and I think authentic story, authentic filmmaking is still great, but I do feel like it may help us shortcut a lot of things. Um, like for instance, I saw, you know, I don't know if you've worked on any of those virtual walls, which is, you know, like this some like a 270-degree video wall that moves like a camera, and that's what they shot the Mandalorian in. That was on that was the first real big test of it. Well, they have those studios now everywhere, and somebody showed me a project they had shot on it that was a music video, but it looked like it was shot on five continents. And they said they shot it in a day. And I looked at that and I'm like, wow, I mean, that wasn't exactly AI, but it's still like using technology. And of course, there's got to be, you know, the computing power and so on and so forth. Because, you know, as the camera moves, it looks real. It's not like you're shooting against just a wall. Um, it it moves in real time, and there's there's this wall that goes up overhead. As well, so there are authentic reflections and highlights and stuff like that. I do think that's going to change a lot of filmmaking, and it already is. I mean, I think you're seeing it in a lot of car ads. At first, when that came out, I was saying, but I didn't get into this to go shoot in the studio. I got into it to go to Trump so Norway with you. You know, and um, but yet, but I can see the benefits of it, you know, and going back to marketers' dollars, you know, budgets are are sometimes being cut. It's like, okay, we can deliver a lot more to a client for a lot less these days than one could have five, ten, fifteen for sure, twenty years ago, you know. So I think I think our ability to tell stories is becoming better and more cost efficient um as the techniques change.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah, I think it's uh a very pragmatic approach because we definitely know that there are people who will probably be like, ah, I don't want anything to do with Sterb because he's using AI. And then there's people who are like, yeah, well, of course, you gotta stay relevant, you gotta stay with the times. So I guess um, as we get close to kind of wrapping up here and we will go into our speed round, uh think about the the audience for the show is folks who are probably not working on rigs like you're working on. They're not getting out to locations necessarily to do these large shoots. A lot of them do want to make really good video content, they want to tell good visual stories, and sometimes that's through a variety of mediums, whether that's you know, they're using their phones or they're using a little bit more uh DSLR mirrorless camera types, or you know, they're using their screens as part of the storytelling, whether that's a slide or or recording software. What would be some advice that you would want everyone to impart with and just leave with in terms of like, hey, something that they could do to be better at this? We've I think we've gotten a lot of great tips for you, but I'm curious about like kind of that what's that?

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Well, I actually think the cameras, I mean, look, this iPhone, the 17 Pro thing, I mean, it's pretty legit, you know. So the tools are definitely getting smaller. I mean, the thing about what we do with bigger cameras is of course, you're allowed you it enables you to manipulate it more in post-production. Um but I mean, I think any camera, whatever's with you is the best camera, you know. Any camera's a good camera if you tell the story right. And I think emotion is really important. And I think a lot of times emotion is is better than visuals. Like if you could tug on someone's heartstrings, it doesn't matter how nasty the shot looks, you know. So somehow think about pleasing backgrounds, think about isolating your subjects, and think about just emotional content. Think about a delivery that feels authentic and real and something that you would want to listen to.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

I well, I I love that because I think uh, you know, emotion does play a place in learning. And I don't think a lot of people who are doing learning development are thinking about the emotion behind it. So I think that's really great advice, Stuart. Uh, you know, you've shared so many great things with us. I really appreciate you you just digging into these questions. And uh, you know, I'm gonna we'll have to connect. I want to see more of your work, and I would love to do that. But but we're gonna have a little fun right now. We're gonna move into our speed round. Uh, these are quick, fast questions with quick, fast answers. Uh, as I mentioned before, I don't have my whole setup going here, but I've got to die and I'm gonna roll. Okay. And I've got a couple of different questions, and you know, good luck to you in answering them. They're they're pretty easy. So we're gonna start with number eight. This is a good one for a guy like yourself doing all this great creative work. Where's your regular place to turn for inspiration?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Ooh. I that that movies, Pinterest, Instagram.

unknown 25:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

I I love that it's very very concise. Movies, Pinterest, and Instagram. Um, uh is there anything that you've seen recently that has just really inspired you from let's say from a film perspective?

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Uh was it one battle after another? It was really good. Um, it's up for an Oscar this weekend. Um uh trying to think what else. Um yeah, that was a good one.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Perfect. All right, we're gonna move on to our next question, which is number four. What you you actually said you saw an episode with this, so this is funny. What's your guilty pleasure song or movie that you secretly love? Well, you it's not a secret because you're gonna tell us about it, but guilty pleasure song or movie.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Song or movie? Well, that's that ooh, um movie. Any any bad action movie is kind of my guilty pleasure. If my wife's not around, it's like, yeah, I might just watch, you know, die hard again. Um like that.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

For the visuals or for the emotion of it?

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Oh, I don't know. I think just for the adrenaline, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

I love it. I love it. Okay, last question here. Uh, what's the one thing you're most proud of in your career?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

That I'm still doing it and I'm still loving it. And I've embraced every change that has come along and just kind of turned it into a positive.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah, and that's and that's great. And the fact that you can you can continue to be able to do this and have been made it successfully, that's uh also congratulations to you. It's amazing. Hard business to be in, for sure. And so good, good job.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

It's a fun business, it's a great business.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Absolutely. Well, Stuart, uh, for those who might be interested in learning more about your work, connecting with you and your your company, where should they turn?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Well, absolutely. Well, there are a couple places. Of course, you could go to our website, which is stewartcoen.com, S-T-E-W-A-R-T, C-O-H-E-N. Um, I'm on Instagram, S-C Pictures. LinkedIn, of course, you could find me on. Um, yeah, those are the best places.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Are you on Pinterest?

SPEAKER_01 28:02

You know, I am, but I don't think we don't play a lot in there. I I more, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

No, I just I was curious if you shared your inspiration, but not that's probably best.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

It is, it is no, it's on there. I think a lot of it, like you could like after I finish a project, like I'll make it public. So you know, you might see some random things like women in the grocery stores with crazy hair, you know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Well, that's that is awesome. Well, Stuart, we like to end the show the same way every single time. We like to ask our guests what is their final take. So, Stuart Cohen, what is your final take?

SPEAKER_01 28:38

I think actually, I got a lot out of this, and I got a lot out of listening to your podcast because I mean, just the fact that story does is the most important thing. And emotional storytelling is, I think, what really, really makes the world go round. And I think that's, you know, you help drive that home. So thank you.

unknown 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Well, Stuart, thank you for joining me here on the Visual Lounge.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

You bet. All right, everybody. You I I love this conversation because, you know, I think sometimes learning, development, marketing, we we get focused on like, what are we gonna show? What are we gonna the words that we're going to say and that emotional piece, that's what resonated with me today as well. I think it's just so important that we think about that. And we've talked about this in various places, like when you have a hook for your story, when you have these pieces, you want to draw your viewer in because if they're not paying attention, it doesn't matter what you show or what you say or what you do. So we gotta learn to do that very well. So, you know, that's a great opportunity. As you're telling your stories out there, you're creating your training content. Think about not only what emotions you're gonna pull on, but think about the things that you're gonna show and how you can tell really good stories inside of those learning opportunities and those marketing opportunities, those technical communicator opportunities. We cut across all these industries here. So, with that said, you know, find some time to practice. That's what leveling up, I say it at the end of every show level up, uh, and uh, you know, it's about practice, it's about doing the thing, giving yourself the space and time to make the opportunity to learn. And if you don't do that, it's really hard to do. So go out there and make something today, and don't forget to level up. Thanks everybody.